Kyle walks to the edge of the open doorway on the side of the airplane 13,000 feet above Dubai. He’s wearing an instructor as a backpack. The clear blue water spreads out for miles below him. The wind hits him like a brick wall.
The instructor is screaming something, but Kyle can only hear the engine and the wind. She keeps flashing hand signals at him. It’s almost time. This is Kyle’s 4th time skydiving but never in a place like this. The instructor pushes off and jumps. She and Kyle drop out of the plane. In that first instant when his feet leave the inside of the plane, he thinks back to being in a movie theater in 2011.
Kyle is in the theater that day to watch the premier of “Fightville,” a documentary film about his little martial arts academy in Lafayette, Louisiana, a small town on the cost of southwest Louisiana, and the academy’s Alpha coach, UFC fighter Tim Credeur, and their rising star, Dustin Poirier. Dustin flashes on the screen and says, “People make fun of me when I say I am going to be a UFC champ. I just look at them and say, ‘What are your dreams? What are you doing with your life?’”
Katonya Johnson (KJ) sat down with Kyle Sherman recently to talk about Trial Structure, his private practice with Brandt & Sherman, and how watching that documentary in that theater in 2011 changed the course of Kyle’s life.
(KJ) Congratulations on the past couple of years. You’ve been busy. Tell us what’s been going on!
Kyle Sherman and his dog Spence
Kyle: Oh my, where do I start? Two or three years ago I started using the trial structure that we teach exclusively in all of my trials. I absolutely love it because it seems like every single trial I am getting better and better. I am not having to recreate the wheel. Obviously, some of the facts change and some of the issues change, but ultimately these cases are all very similar. I’m seeing how similar every single trial is. At a certain level, every single defense is the same. So I am getting better and better. Most of the work has already been done, and I am just fine tuning everything. It is the first time in my career that I feel like I am building upon my skill level, my presentation level, and my product as each trial completes.
(KJ) Every time we hear about your trials, they seem to be a lot about stipulated liability cases. That has to be either because you are the best litigator in the world, or because the defense thinks that somehow that would trip you up. Tell us your philosophy with stipulated liability cases and how you handle those?
Kyle: This last trial that I had I figured they were going to stipulate liability at the last minute. I have written openings for numerous trials for both stipulated and non-stipulated, because I always assume that the fact pattern ends up where the liability is not a huge issue. I think a lot of defense lawyers come in and stipulate at the last-minute thinking they will trip me up, but it doesn’t trip me up at all. I think because A.) Trial structure has a stipulated way to do it and a non-stipulated way to do it. Both of them are very effective. B). I always ask my clients when I am preparing them for their depositions how does it feel for you to know that you weren’t at fault, yet they won’t accept responsibility for the wreck. It is never a good thing. It is not like I am telling them to say it is mental anguish. No, it bothers them. So from the get-go if the defense asks the right questions, they will figure out that whether or not they will stipulate to liability, the way the wreck happened and how they were treated after the wreck is relevant to my client’s claim and it will be part of the trial. Half the time they don’t ever figure that out until it comes to trial and I start discussing the wreck or I start discussing how they denied liability. Most of the time I am able to get it in because I have laid a foundation that that has been an element of the damages, meaning the mental anguish. Now as far as writing it with the Trial Structure it’s a breeze. It’s just a different pattern if you will. When it is stipulated, I concentrate on causation. When it is not stipulated, I am usually doing both so that’s the big difference. Out of the last three trials I’ve had two of them were non-stipulated. I am very, very proud of one of those cases. It was a young woman 21- 22 years old. It was basically her word against 4 safety men for the railroad. It was a car crash. These are trained witnesses. These are men that have been through litigation before. They were able to pow wow together to come up with this way that the crash happened. Our method of presentation allowed for that 21-year-old girl to beat 4 professional witnesses with the truth. I base that on the trial structure, the presentation skills that we learned and teach, and hard work.
(KJ) Hard work. I like that. I think that fits you perfectly!
Kyle: That’s all things that are in my control. All three of those things are in my control, and that is what I like about this way of trying cases.
(KJ) You mentioned a little bit about the teaching, and we had a couple of structure seminars this year. Talk a little bit about why you do the teaching? What value you get out of it? How you think it affects and helps the students in the structure programs?
Kyle: That’s a great question! The teaching is extremely valuable for my growth. It programs my mind to start narrowing down the issues. Making sure I am finding the issues that are important that show the betrayal and show the frivolous defenses. Whether it is my case or someone else’s case, it is training to me. When I am teaching a class and I have 6 or 7 lawyers with these problems and they are coming at me and I have to basically speed structure them, it is training my mind. It is also beneficial in that all these cases are the same. When you really start looking at what the defense is saying, it is always the same. It is very similar.
The second thing I really love about teaching is, I am inspiring other lawyers to go out and try cases. It’s a real big pet peeve of mine, trial lawyers who do not prepare their clients or their case for trial. They wait until the last minute, hoping the case settles. Then they pretty much have to settle because the client has not been prepared to be brave. If that makes sense? Meaning, if I go to a friend and say “Hey, I want to throw you in an MMA match. It’s just for charity, but its next weekend. Will you do it?” Well, they are going to look at me like I’m crazy. But if I have worked with this person for several months, teaching them things, and they enjoy it, they start feeling comfortable with what they will have to do. Then I approach them with the idea, and I am met with a totally different attitude. It is the same thing with a client. No one wants to go to trial. But if you train them, and you teach them, and if you arm them with their own truth, then they have confidence in you. You have worked through the issues. They have seen your openings and they have confidence. Then the client who has put their trust in you, they are able to make an informed decision on their future. It’s not something that he is forced to make a decision at the last moment. You have to prepare your clients for battle. And doing what we do has a way of doing that because we’re prepared. We have a game plan for our trial, and we know what evidence to go get during discovery.
But the other thing that I get out of teaching is pure satisfaction. Recently, I was giving a presentation in San Diego when these young lawyers came to me after the presentation and started telling me about this trial they have coming up. They are these three young people, it’s a husband and wife, and the two guys are best friends. They actually live next door to each other in apartments. They started this firm and they have so much invested in this case, and shockingly it was a wrongful termination case. That inspired me to want to help them. So we helped them, and they got a $5M verdict. That not only saved their practice, but I think it jump started their practice because now they have a $5M verdict. It is kind of like college football and recruiting. If you have a successful year it is just that much easier to recruit the following year. Well, if you have a $5M verdict it’s a heck of a lot easier to get more cases.
(KJ) Talk to us about how the consulting went with that San Diego case? How long it took? What kinds of things you did with them? And, obviously, the result.
Kyle Interviewing Tyrek Malveaux after a fight
Kyle: Well, I brought in Chuck Bennett because A). It was a big case and I’m just used to working with him. B.) It was a complicated case, and I think we team up very well together. Plus, two heads are better than one. I was motivated to help these attorneys be successful. One of the lead lawyers, Justin Walker, knew so much about the case that it almost took a half a day trying to dig through what was irrelevant and not important. That’s exactly what the defense wants us to do: confuse the jury. The defense wants to make the case as complicated as possible. He was walking right into that by thinking everything was important. He wanted to tell us everything that ever happened in the three years of litigation. That was the hardest part.
When Chuck and I arrived, Chuck didn’t know anything about the case. Justin starts into telling us about the case, and after about a minute Chuck says, “Justin, stop. I don’t want to hear about that. This is what we’re doing.” All three of the lawyer clients were shocked. I’m sure they were thinking, “What is going on? They don’t want to hear about our case?”
But once we were able to narrow down the issues, which are always the same, we were able to zero-in on what needed to be presented to the jury, what the story was, in an easy to follow manner, pointing out some really good gems that the facts had underneath all the other minutia. They are incredibly smart, but they didn’t have a lot of trial experience. And once we were able to write the opening and closing, we had to work on their presentation skills. The way we write our openings is we write on paper and then we get them to stand up and we re-write on our feet. The process really seemed to work out, basically what happened is we hammered out the details and then we got them up and had them work out the actual verbiage on their feet. Then I would present it and they would just mirror me throwing in some of their own style. Because everyone has got their own style. But just being able to show them the proper way to present and use some of the techniques, I think it was invaluable and the success proved that. And the result they got? I told Chuck from the beginning it was a $5M case, but we were still obviously very excited for them!
(KJ) I hear you’ve become really good at witness preparation. You touched on it a little bit earlier, but tell us a little more about why witness preparation is so important.
Kyle: Well, the way we do witness prep, it usually makes the client perform three times better just in deposition. That’s another pet peeve of mine: lawyers not preparing their clients for depositions. I’ve started trying cases for other lawyers, and when I read the deposition, I can figure out from the content of the deposition that they were never prepared or weren’t prepared correctly. It doesn’t mean the client isn’t telling the truth. It doesn’t mean the client is a bad witness. It just means that he wasn’t prepared. He didn’t go over things that happened two years before to refresh his memory. He wasn’t trained on how to answer questions. I think that is very important. I get that out of teaching because it reinforces the way I practice law. It also reinforces the way that I hope to inspire others to practice law. I take pride in preparing my witnesses and every other witness in the cases I consult on. It’s a vital part of a winning strategy.
KJ: You mentioned earlier about MMA. Tell us a little bit about your history with Martial Arts, and what you’ve done with it? Does it contribute to your private practice and trial structure?
Kyle training in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Kyle: Oh, most definitely. I wrestled, have been in Martial Arts since a teenager, and have practiced Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for over 10 years. Well, first of all my staff loves that I train in Brazillian Jiu Jitsu because it’s surprising how stress relieving choking the crap out of someone on the mat is. I am a much more even level and calm person in the office when I am able to get my stress out in a different way. You think I am joking, but it’s actually true. What I do in my association with my Martial Arts Academy has had so many profound effects on my career.
Also, people ask me why I still want to compete in Jiu Jitsu tournaments at my age. One of the main reasons is because it’s so beneficial to my trial practice. I go through the same emotions as with a big trial. Leading up to the trial, months away, I’m excited and ready to get after it. A couple weeks before the trial, I get anxious and the nerves start kicking in, I think, “why am I doing this? “ The week of, just before it starts
I’m thinking “there has got to be an easier way to make a living!” When I get in the courtroom and it starts, I’m ready. I’m relaxed and confident. When it’s over, I’m like “that was awesome! I can’t wait to do it again!” That’s the same thing with competing in Jiu Jitsu. That’s why I still compete. It’s training for trial. It helps me to be comfortable being uncomfortable!
(KJ) Last question, tell us about what happened after you watched that documentary when Dustin vowed to win a UFC Championship.
Kyle: That moment hit me as hard as one of Dustin’s punches. I was watching my friends pursuing big dreams, not just local success. In that moment I made up my mind to quit limiting myself to local success, and I decided I would work as hard as I could to be the best trial lawyer I could possibly be. I started traveling the country and surrounding myself with and learning from the country’s greatest trial lawyers. I started taking chances, dedicating myself, and facing my fears with hard work!
Today, I still have a long way to go, but I travel the country teaching seminars, consulting, trying big cases, and helping change lives…things I had always believed were out of my reach. There has been no greater impact on my career than that moment in time and the inspiration I have received from the examples set by Tim Credeur and Dustin Poirier.
In April 2019, Dustin Poirier followed through on the promise he made in that 2011 documentary and won the UFC Lightweight Championship. in September 2019, Kyle went to Abu Dhabi to watch and support Tim coach another upcoming contender and Dustin defend his title like a true champion. Three guys from Lafayette, Louisiana, proving in the ring and in the courtroom that no dream is too big, if they set their mind to it.
Oh, and Kyle jumped out of an airplane while he was there:
May we present to you Kyle Sherman – Your Lawyer, Your Skydiver! #Dubai #HisFourthTime
Posted by Brandt & Sherman, LLP on Tuesday, September 17, 2019